Discussions on future myKART enduros

31 Jan 2005

Posted by TheFazz

Folks - just want to kick off a discussion in relation to future myKART enduro events.

As I mentioned in [url=http://my-kart.org/web/index.php?q=node/81]another forum topic[/url], we would like to have a quarterly enduro.

Azlan's response quoted below for convenience:

Quote:

Fazz & I were toying with the idea of holding a Quarterly Enduro which would also count towards individual's league points as well.

The idea's still sketchy but the Enduro will run more or less along the same format as MyME, with the following difference:

- you enter as individuals, not groups
- we then ballot individuals into groups, in other words each team formed will compose of randomly selected members....you will quickly need to make friends with your new team mates and quickly formulate a strategy based on your team's situation
- to ensure fair distribution of weight, individuals may be places into 2 or more weight categories, names put into a hat, then ballot.

so, for example, to form a team for Kart 1, the organiser will pick names from hat A (featherweight), hat B (middleweight), hat C (heavies...yeah), etc..

so, once teams are formed, the rest of the event runs very much like MyME.

You will then score individual points based on how your team finishes, eg 1st place, all team members score 20 points (or less?) towards the league table, and so on....this will add up on the the points you score for individual races in between the Enduro...

In summary , the above hopefully promotes more team work, team spirit within MyKart (ie you really have to work closely with random team members), the balloting of teams also eliminates the need for late penalty if a team member does not turn up on time, etc, and despite being in random teams for each Enduro, if you are really good individually, you should be able to score points in the team, and even more if you foster team spirit and encourage the "slower" ones to improve...

Anyway, these are my ideas, .... pls comment, add more ideas, or tell me if it totally sucks..... in any case let's generate ideas for a more exciting 2005 season! (yes, anti-clockwise racing IS an option this time!)....

Some ideas rolling in my head include:

[list]
[*]format: 3 x 1 hour races & swap karts
[*]2 hour, 2 driver enduros (this was done by a group on Sunday 30th Jan)... looked interesting... although the karts may be shot by the end...
[/list]

Please discuss.

TheFazz's picture

I would like to know whether you guys would be interested in maintaining the same teams or have different drivers for each enduro event.

I would like to make the enduro series meaningful, and skewed more towards team strategy, and place more attention on total team weight. Would prefer to take 70kg as the average weight... so that a team of 4 should weigh 280kgs minimum.

We should also bear in mind the variability of rental karts and thus look into the possibility of swapping karts to balance the playing field a bit.

Give me your thoughts... and keep this discussion going.


siewweng's picture

fazz.. sorry to say for tail happy racing, we cant maintain the same team members as i am going off to melb soon.


TheFazz's picture

siewweng wrote:
fazz.. sorry to say for tail happy racing, we cant maintain the same team members as i am going off to melb soon.

Well - as so often happens in F1... we get another driver in. Smile


TheFazz's picture

Anybody have any views about the next myKART Mega Enduro?

I have a conundrum: judging from previous enduro and on going 2005 KART series response, we may potentially have more than 60 drivers keen to participate in the next enduro and potentially 70 drivers by the last enduro of the year!

Anything more than 4 drivers per team I think is too messy. So assuming we limit to max 4 per team... then we will have 15 to 18 teams, but Citykarting can only run max 12 x 80cc karts as for now.

So we may have to split the 15/18 teams into 2 groups.

This is not ideal as enduro races depend on distance covered within the same timeframe... but track and kart conditions at differnt times of the day can result in a significant difference in performance and hence distance covered.

Not keen on having a sprint race to decide the overall enduro champion, so we need a way to rank teams as fairly as possible.

Any thoughts?


alfagta's picture

Hi Fazz!
Since the last enduro was very successful format,we can always follow the same format,just to more strict in the rules & regulation for late participants,no last min. driver change,marshal standby at the pit entrance & refuel area ......
i was thinking this time ,i wan do 4 hour 80cc enduro with 7 pit stop for 10 mins for drivers change at every 25 mins break.
then we can have 8 drivers for a team,if we have 12 karts ,there will be 96 participants.....
how this sound good?


TheFazz's picture

what if one team gets a crap kart? and if another gets a super fast one?

4 hours will become a chore if there's nothing the team can do to improve their positions.


siewweng's picture

fazz, i thought your 4 x 45 minute/driver enduro is pretty good , with 3 x 1 hour (or 4 x 45 mins sprints). that way, each team get to use 3(or 4) different karts.
but it will just lenghten the duration and if timing system screws up, its gonna very messy.

i like that idea, too bad cant try it Sad


alfagta's picture

then we have to ballot the karts one day before the race, the team will test it & give complaint on the same day with 4 new tyres & new brakes....coz also anything can happen at 4 hours race...like weather too...
also then have to lock up the karts engine with paint on every nut & screw,so that no one can touch anything overnight....
something like car races....
but during the last enduro ,i think citykarting setup the karts very equally only they complaint about the barkes...
really looking forward for it & maybe can be call the extreme mega 4hours endurance race.....


TheFazz's picture

alfagta wrote:
then we have to ballot the karts one day before the race, the team will test it & give complaint on the same day with 4 new tyres & new brakes....coz also anything can happen at 4 hours race...like weather too...
also then have to lock up the karts engine with paint on every nut & screw,so that no one can touch anything overnight....

That is one way (but will depend on our price with CityKarting, I expect)... any other options?


alfagta's picture

pricewise ,like the last enduro,we charge rm400 perteam,that is rm100 per participant,also good respone & shouldn't a problem,maybe we can charge at rm800 0r a bit more for a team for 4hrs endo.
can any members give some suggestion on this price?
maybe we allow the team to get their own sponsors ,that will cut down their participants cost,i can get the sponsors stickers stick to their chosen kart then....
I think at Rd 2,after the race ,we find a nice place to discuss in this matter?


TheFazz's picture

Race fee would I guess depend on the prizes. The PanGlobal AlexYoong F1 driver search charged RM100 per driver for one assured 8 lap race... and if you are lucky (or good.. *grin*), you get another 8 lap race. And if you qualify, you get one more in the GrandFinals.

That is about RM33 per race. Currently CityKarting charges myKART RM80 for 3 assured races. Only different, PanGlobal has a carrot at the end of the year of a chance to test drive the Formula BMW Asia car... which lucky people like Shahrul Asraf, and Joon Hiang from myKART managed to do.

So, if we can get an attractice prize (say a Panasonic HiFi set - Alvin J, hint hint wink wink)... I believe many would not mind paying RM100 to RM150 for an enduro which gives them 20mins track time.


alfagta's picture

sponsors for prizes is most important then....
will try to work out to bring a main sponsor in.
let say like M'sia GP main sponsor is Petronas,they called it
"Petronas F1 GP"
If we can get few thousand buck from them,we can also call
"Petronas MyKart Endurance"
or
"Shell MyKart Endurance"
we have to set a price for main sponsor but need to prepare the sponsorship letters from MyKart with the recognation from citykarting & kartquest or other go-kart track owner first!
Then we even get maybe a trip to Bali for the champion....


dimples's picture

aiyo ... for me 10 minutes in a kart and my badan sakit so I think that for me this Enduro thing will have to be a future event.

So in the meantime, me will bring me pom-poms and cheer you big boys from the tyres ... hehe! Smile


TheFazz's picture

dimples wrote:
So in the meantime, me will bring me pom-poms and cheer you big boys from the tyres ... hehe! Smile

can oso.


TheFazz's picture

John raised a thought on driver movements between events.

This is quite important to ensure continuity of certain teams scoring. However, not sure whether easy to implement having the same team of drivers attending all enduro events.

An alternative thinking however, is having drivers swap teams except for the "team principles". So, say you are team principle for Fast n Furious -then your team will score as long as you participate in the event. Your teammates may be anybody but along one of the following two options (need to decide on approach soon):[list=a]
[*]randomly drawn out of the hat (drivers by weight category)
[*]self managed by team principle as long as within the weight limit (suggest average of 70kgs per driver)
[/list]

Need to work this further, so further discussion is welcomed. Please constrain your discussions on the enduro format in this forum thread for ease of reference / revisit.


alfagta's picture

for my suggestion for this year quarterly enduro,
agree with our point @ fazz.
the pionts will be given as long as your team nmae is attending all enduro event of the year.
every team shold elect their team principle & assistant principle ,as long as one of the must be at any of the race for all session of the year.
weight will be add to min. 70kg for male & 60kg for female for a combination of 4 driver for a team.
race format as usual 2 hour enduro,pit will be open every 25mins break for 10mins for 3 times,since we have the laps board now from citykarting,i will use this board as the minutes reading notice from the 9 to 1 mins at the pit entry so that the driver can view!
once the pit close,driver is not allow to enter the pit if only they need to repair the kart problem with the same driver have to complete the 25mins race till another pit open.
driver must sign out with time noted before they race.
all teams must have a min. refuel during any of the pitstop,marshal will be there to note down the kart. no & time too.
so that after the race,the comittees will double check whether all teams did their sign in & refuelling.
will still have a discussin with all the teams principles & mykme2005 comittees 2 weeks before the race!


TheFazz's picture

Some updates on the weight penalties.

I was just at the track a while ago (between 1430-1530hrs on 9 April 2005). Jason Lu was doing his 125cc testing as usual, so asked him to test lap times on the 80cc with and without weights - each for 5 laps. The weather was slightly overcast but was consistent for both the stints.

Jason took the 80cc kart #3 and was averaging 1'13.427s (excluding the lowest and highest lap times).

We added about 6kg weights and his lap times dropped to an average of 1'15.410s - which is about 2secs disadvantage. Jason's lap times were pretty consistent during both stints - table below...

[CSV]
lap,without weights,with 6kg weights
1,1'14.150,1'15.540
2,1'13.350,1'15.240
3,1'13.370,1'15.600
4,1'13.300,1'15.310
5,1'13.560,1'15.380
[/CSV]

Analysis:
[CSV]
description,without weights,with 6kg weights
Total 5 laps,6'07.730,6'17.070
Best time,1'13.300,1'15.240
Slowest time,1'14.150,1'15.600
Total time excluding fastest & slowest laps,3'40.280,3'46.230
Average excluding fastest & slowest laps,1'13.427,1'15.410
[/CSV]

This works out to be:
[list]
[*]+0.331secs per kg
[*]+1.983secs per 6 kgs
[*]+3.306secs per 10 kgs
[/list]

Take note that this is just for 80cc karts. A team which is 10kg lighter than the minimum weights would potentially be docked 3 laps by the end of the 2 hour race.


OSFlanker's picture

The results are pretty startling - 3.3 sec per 10 kg! Those in K3 better take note and start trimming.............


siewweng's picture

that is a lot...considering at the last enduro, the winning team managed to win the race (only)1 lap ahead of the 2nd place team.
referring to the entry list in yahoo groups, of the 10 teams that had its weight listed, only 3 teams managed to past 280kg(all above 290.. i should actually discount team heavies as they are reported to be only 255kg,not 290kg due to late driver change etc.). but fear not, the average weight of the drivers in those 10 teams is 67kg Smile

so the 280kg requirement is attainable after all.


siewweng's picture

extracted from John Kings message in yahoogroups, message number 2961.

"On the weights, although this gives as advantage to me with the Hui Nee, maybe we should also think about giving teams with ladies a break on the weights - so reduce the weight limit by 10kg for each lady in the team. We could also have a weight penalty for success - so after the 1st round, the championship leaders could carry 5 kg lead and the 2nd place team 3 kg (and still have to follow the rules for team driver weights). Based on last time, if you increase the weight limit, you may well have to put some lead on some of the karts - many of the teams will be underweight."

i am actually contradicting myself..... hhmmmpph..


TheFazz's picture

siewweng - you may be right about the number of teams above the 280kg limit. I would like to fix it at an average of 70kgs per driver as you have calculated... perhaps then review it to 65kgs next time.


naza's picture

TheFazz wrote:

......A team which is 10kg lighter than the minimum weights would potentially be docked 3 laps by the end of the 2 hour race.

Meaning pontentially penalised 6 laps at the end of the 2 hr race if the team is 20 kg lighter than 280 kg. Man, thats a lot ! Given the relatively high driving skills seen in previous races, I would imagine it to be almost impossible to be ahead of any team by that margin (more so if the kart is sucks!) even after 2 hrs. Habis laa...!! I just hope that light drivers will not be left out in the future ? Hopefully not, if we can find a another way of handling this. Meanwhile it would be interesting to see the outcome.


alfagta's picture

any team principle here plan to have a meet at citykarting on any weekend?
so that we can discuss the matter asap!
sms me or fazz
my hp: 0123354970


TheFazz's picture

We have had a number of postponements and cancellations for the round 2 enduro. And I apologise to all for that. We aimed to have our enduros to coincide with CityKarting's new 80cc karts delivery. This unfortunately leaves our timing much to Citykarting and to the kart suppliers. And thus the several late changes in the enduro dates.

For future events, I would suggest that we fix the dates well in advance and avoid school holidays and long weekends as well... and then we go ahead without having to wait for citykarting.

Because of the existing karts, we will have to think of how do we balance the performance of old karts (chassis, engines, tyres).

I would welcome discussion on how we should even up the performance of karts in enduros given the definite inconsistency from one kart to another?


alfagta's picture

me to sorry about he short notice & agree what Fazz mention earlier!
coz all this happen due to citykarting new 80cc kart arrival.
anyway,I think we need to really checkout the total weight for a team aspa coz still hard to get the min. 280kg for a team as few register teams didnt make to the min. weight too!
pls conment?


OSFlanker's picture

Perhaps another way to arrive at the minimum weight is to aggregate all the participants weight to arrive at the average weight. The minimum weight is the average or a certain percentage of the average.

eg there are 24 participants totalling 1,562kg, average is 65.08kg, then the minimum weight of a team is 260kg (rounded to nearest kg).


TheFazz's picture

OSFlanker wrote:
Perhaps another way to arrive at the minimum weight is to aggregate all the participants weight to arrive at the average weight. The minimum weight is the average or a certain percentage of the average.

eg there are 24 participants totalling 1,562kg, average is 65.08kg, then the minimum weight of a team is 260kg (rounded to nearest kg).

Interesting approach... only problem is that teams will not know the minimum weight until all registrations are closed. This is going to cause a lot of havoc.

What we can do however, is to use the average weight for the previous event. I don't think I still have the data, but will have to check - Steward any thoughts?

If according to the previous registration list:
http://my-kart.org/web/index.php?q=node/81&from=30&comments_...

[CSV]
TEAM,Team Weight
fast & furious,249
tail happy racing,260
gila racing,?
mee fook yew,?
heavies,292
cool it,?
underweights,235
team 156,275
initial d,243
bmw,?
romeos,276
DAFART,290
??,290
backmarkers,291
average per team,270.1
[/CSV]

Looks like 270kg per team is alright...? Or 67.5kg per driver.


TheFazz's picture

More importantly though is how do we ensure that the luck of the draw (bad kart, super kart) is reduced substantially?

We cannot always hope that Citykarting will provide brand new karts and tyres.... so we need a way to remove the bad choice / great choice karts.


Nohad's picture

TheFazz wrote:
More importantly though is how do we ensure that the luck of the draw (bad kart, super kart) is reduced substantially?

We cannot always hope that Citykarting will provide brand new karts and tyres.... so we need a way to remove the bad choice / great choice karts.

Very easy. Let me test run all the karts for 5 laps for free and let my timing tell you which kart is lousy. How about that?


TheFazz's picture

Nohad wrote:
TheFazz wrote:
More importantly though is how do we ensure that the luck of the draw (bad kart, super kart) is reduced substantially?

We cannot always hope that Citykarting will provide brand new karts and tyres.... so we need a way to remove the bad choice / great choice karts.

Very easy. Let me test run all the karts for 5 laps for free and let my timing tell you which kart is lousy. How about that?

But then we'd have to disallow you from participating in the REAL event... *big grin*


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